Tiller Labs - Get an MVP in 30 days for $18k

@bentossell | Hey Ben, so I have to respectfully disagree with you as you've respectfully disagreed with Ria. ;) The first thing I'll mention is that the types of MVPs we're building couldn't ever be built in something like Webflow (which our creative agency uses quite frequently). Tiller Labs builds web apps, from design to UX to code. As we've compared prices, we've found that the average cost paid for an MVP *can* be much lower or it could trail up into the $30-$50k range. The second thing I'll mention is that your comments (while I'm sure are well intentioned!) are also not applicable to everyone. I don't develop applications as I'm on the design side of the equation, which is why it would have been impossible for me to get my startup launched on my own as you suggested. I tried partnering, paying top dollar and even outsourcing via E-lance to India. It took 2+ years and 4 rounds of developers. Tiller Labs was born out of that frustration and my realization that having my MVP and getting it back in my hands within 30 days was well worth the this price tag. In the end, I put far more money into my MVP + time + energy than $18k. Of course, there are those who can build a web app from scratch and we absolutely encourage that! And last, we love Meteor and we're doing some pretty powerful things with it. ;) Appreciate your input, man! If you have any more comments/questions please feel free to leave it here!

@nateembrey Understood and maybe some, more complex MVPs can't be built in other applications. But I do think an MVP should be as simple as possible. Of course I understand that it's not for everyone and I was coming from the standpoint of the tech-startup community, in which there are always a variety of views anyway. I don't code (like at all) and I tried learning but felt I could be using my time best elsewhere. I joined a few slack groups and within 3 months I had one of the best makers on Product Hunt develop my site for me. I didn't have to pay a penny and I went from idea to launch in around 3-4 months (now one of the top performing sites on the whole of Product Hunt). Again I understand this situation doesn't stand for everyone but I strongly believe that if you are in this startup world then you can quite easily get help without the fuss, hassle and cost if you look in the right places and go by the mantra of give value without expecting anything back. Anyway, that comes from my story and many things I've read - but not shrugging off that certain use-cases would benefit from this service. Do you offer any other tiers? So for example if I'd built a simple web app in one of the services mentioned before, and wanted you to just help give it that extra edge? Also, what is the most common piece of feedback you've received from past customers?

@bentossell Hey Ben, I'm confused how did you build a few sites in Meteor when you also stated that you didn't code at all?

@gaiapunk I attempted to learn to code last year. Made a few applications badly. Got stuck, gave up. If you sat me down now and told me to open command line, I wouldn't know what to start typing. Hence - I don't code.

@nateembrey @bentossell I actually think the major issue with all of this is using a silly word like MVP and thinking this term actually translates to every single product offering imaginable, in addition to it's association with founders and them getting real world feedback as soon as possible to build for market fit. Minimum viable product...Apples MVP for the iPhone was a giant computer with a huge chunk of glass looked nothing like a "cell phone". The goal is not about getting a version 1 or a version 10 out asap that has the title of an "MVP"... It is about time, and it is about resources...it is validating market fit as soon as possible and doing so by spending the least amount of money as possible. Both are not mutually exclusive. I think anytime we try and go about this in the sense that we can separate market fit from the MVP or that we can spend $18,000 and it translates into a perfect product or a usable one is where they point gets blurry. It's hard to built a business any business and I believe Ben's comment which was really his insight given he's seen countless startups, fail and fail well because they don't maximize their resources. I should know being that I'm a product designer and have been doing that for 10 years and ran a design firm and I've seen countless clients want to pay me $xx,xxx-$xxx,xxx on stuff even as an MVP not even on the development side of things on stuff they need to first get to market and test the fit. marketing has never ever saved a bad product...you can't buy people and so you can't buy business sucess so I think knowing what you're getting into and not just thinking $18k solves every issue and means you will have a killer app or idea because you blew almost $20k is all I think we're getting at. We all want the same thing for people to excel and succeed and offering tools and services to empower them to do so...but it's still up to these people to know what they are getting themselves into so I think the educational side of things needs to be more apparent if this is to really change especially for those who aren't technical and simply ignore this and just go and hack things on their own.

@riaface respectfully disagree as per my points above :)

@bentossell I'm sure you're not the only one :) I'd definitely be interested to hear the founders' take on your comments, but I personally know a couple of people who really struggled to find a technical co-founder and had no option but to outsource. One of these was an older lady who believes that people were put off by her age (and, to a lesser degree, gender); she had funding based on her concept and ended up spending well in excess of $18k for her MVP. As I said, it's definitely not for everyone, but as a concept (quick, on-tap MVPs), I think it's potentially an option for some.

@riaface true. I guess I was not particularly thinking of people not in the tech-startup world. I still stand by my points but agreed that in some cases this could be an option. Although a lot of people like building stuff for free, but you do have to invest time into getting to know people/communities/etc

@bentossell @riaface Added my input to Ben's initial post. Hope some of those points help put some scope to this!

@riaface +1. As a non-technical founder, I don't see this as a lazy way out of doing the hard work of building a startup. It's a way for someone with an idea to get it built and start validating it. Like Ben, I've dabbled with learning to code, but my time is better spent doing the things I'm already good at rather than suffering through learning to code or jumping from technical co-founder to technical co-founder. I don't see the value in suffering for the sake of suffering, just so that I can earn my "I worked real hard" startup merit badge. The MVP is step one, there's still plenty of hard work to be done and plenty of opportunity to get my startup street cred.

@ghiliweld | Hey man, you do have a point here and, at the same time, I have to be straightforward in saying that you're also missing a point as well. Let me explain. Some startups can do what you're proposing. Totally. Ryan Hoover can start Product Hunt with a mailing list, much like my close friend @davidsherry36 did with his company, Death to the Stock Photo. If you can do that, or you can create your proof of concept in any other form...you 100% should. Other startups, like Boomerang which we took to MVP and are iterating on now, cannot do this. If you need to test an app with a small group of early adopters to get feedback and iterate rapidly (the MVP model as defined in The Lean Startup) and that app needs to allow users to upload photos and manage how they display, then display those photos to an end user (a client of your client) and allow that user to engage with them by way of liking/sorting/downloading/etc, then you need a custom built app and it's going to cost you money. At least if you're not a developer yourself. Last, the problem I see with your position is that you're proposing to know what MVP really means for every situation and every person. But that's not how this works. MVPs need to be different things for different folks, and for the ones who need something that BY ITS NATURE requires that it be more than a mailing list, then (by your definition) they'd be out of luck forever. We're using the term MVP and being bold in our messaging because we chose to. That's the bottom line. We're know MVPs aren't one-size-fits-all and we know that the product we've put together here won't fit every application or every budget, but it will fit some. I'll say again what I've said a dozen times in this thread already: had I gone this route with my startup instead of trying what's being suggested here, I would have saved upwards of $20k, gotten far more sleep, started generating feedback and revenues faster AND would have been weeks and months ahead of my competition by way of the turnaround we're proposing. I do appreciate your feedback, but we're talking about 2 fundamentally different types of businesses and MVPs that they my need. My MVP was version 1.0 and that's a valid way of pushing into the market. Other MVPs are version 0 or .1, etc...and that's valid too. I think we need to leave some space for each founder/startup to interpret terms and needs themselves and if the shoe fits, then it's their choice to wear it or not. Again, this conversation is amazing and we love getting so much robust input from everyone! Thanks, for real! Hope this message lands well.

@nateembrey wow what a great reply. I appreciate how you are staying cool under the criticism here. You know exactly who your product is for and for who it isn't. @bentossell what are your thoughts?

@ghiliweld | Of course! Really appreciate you taking this in context too. :) We care about this a lot. I'm here because I know having it myself would have saved me tons of stress and heartache. Appreciate this thread a TON and we're learning a lot. Have a good rest of your night!

@ghiliweld yeh I think it all depends on how people perceive MVP really. That can change opinions a lot.

@mubashariqbal | Dude, yes. This is exactly where we are. We do have a few others on our team but the brunt of the work is Jason and I and we show up to turn out a quality app that does what it's supposed to in a strong and beautiful way. This resonates with us a lot. Thanks!

@jongold | Right on, man. Thanks a lot for chiming in. A quick note, the breakdown for payout on our end is quite a bit more complicated than splitting it down the middle. We do have a few employed/contacted devs and designers + overhead + other miscellaneous costs. We're doing this for what we feel is a fair and modest price, especially considering turnaround and the custom nature of what we're doing for a client! Thanks again for the comment and for the well-wishes! Cheers.

@jcsnv Lol, I was thinking the same. Now everyone here working for an agency is looking for the "how to I submit my company to PH" button.

@sacbookreviewer @jcsnv | Hey guys. We've already mentioned this above, and while you're right that we're an agency, we also created a very specific product for founders. Super clear what that is in our tagline. A little confused about what feels somewhat like trolling but hey...free market, am I right? Good luck to you both, either way!

@nateembrey @jcsnv Not trolling! Best of luck!

@nateembrey @jcsnv Same here. I think what we're talking about is PH has usually only posted things that a user can do or use themselves, with a few major exceptions (thinking of the Book In a Box from last year). So Crew.co hasn't ever been hunted as far as I know, but products they've made have been like their How much does it cost to make an app and not them as an agency directly. What you're offering is pretty much what any shop offers - "pay us and we make something for you" not "here is a tool we've made that let's you do X yourself". I could knock out the same landing page and call it a specific product too. So we were just having a side conversation about that, not discussing you directly. Happens here.

@nemrow | Glad you get it, my friend. Also, this is exactly the part of this space where we fit. It's not going to work for everyone, but it could. We'd still love to chat with/help anyone trying to figure out where they are in the process of building an app, even if that means we won't ever work with them! This is a huge deal, and it's near and dear to my heart. Thanks again!

Hey @alexiscreuzot, thanks for the compliment on the site! As per your agency comment, we certainly are an agency but we're trying to create a product for founders that's an all-in-one solution to the problem of getting a quality application created quickly so that they get do the real work of promoting and testing, etc. This *service* is put together as a package to simplify the process for everyone. Thanks again for the feedback!

@dredurr | Thanks for the comment, man. We leave some room for support, of course. And honestly, what we're building for $18k is absolutely closer to the $30-$50k range for a typical team, especially one building in a framework that doesn't allow for rapid development like Meteor. As I've mentioned a few other places in this thread: the brand of MVP we're making ourselves available to help build is the one that needs to be a bit more robust than something than can live/work in the form of a "website". We're building functioning apps that do everything they need to and nothing that they don't (or maybe some things that they don't) and then letting the founders/owners start the process of vetting that app out so they're next iteration is better/more dialed toward what the customer wants. We don't really want to have the conversation about .1 or 1.0, etc...because those are all relative. My personal app needed to be a version 1.0 as the MVP because it had so many moving parts and those were ALREADY pulled back to their minimum. So we made that, pushed it, and now we're in the process of iterating on it again. I totally hear you though, for sure. It's an interesting space and we knew we were being "loud" when we created this tagline for our agency. We did it on purpose to make a clear pitch. Some relationships/projects will be a great fit, others won't...but everyone has an idea what they're in for before they start that conversation with us! Hope this makes sense. :) Honestly appreciate the feedback a ton.