Jeff Gothelf and Josh Seiden
Authors of Lean UX and Sense & Respond
Discussion
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
Hi - I'm Jeff Gothelf, coauthor of Lean UX and of the recently published Sense & Respond. I've been a designer, product manager, team leader, executive coach and organizational designer. I work at the nexus of lean startup, enterprise agile and design.
And I'm Josh Seiden, I'm the co-author of the books Jeff mentioned. My background is in design and product management. I help teams create businesses and launch new digital products and services by helping them form strategies, design products, and figure out how to work more successfully with one another and within their companies. (I'm the good-looking partner.)
We're delighted to be here - ask us anything!
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Dan Vineyard
@danvineyard · Product Designer
Hello! Can you talk about a process of using Lean UX within an Agile framework? It seems like the two are difficult to integrate. Any suggestions?
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@danvineyard Hi Dan. Lean UX is *all about* agile. It's a set of techniques and frameworks to bring UX into Agile--where are you having trouble integrating?
Dan Vineyard
@danvineyard · Product Designer
@jseiden We have a sprint '0' where I can do a lot of UX work, which is where I apply the Lean UX process, but then once we have started our sprints, it seems it's all I can do just to keep up with the pace of development. It's hard to go back to that end-to-end view when we story point user stories at such a granular level. We are missing the forest for the trees, but I'm not sure how to get back to that space where we have more time to really think through the problems we are trying to solve. Thanks!
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@danvineyard @jseiden part of the issue here is how your team measures success. If it's success is measured by the number of features it ships (and the efficiency with which you ship them) there will never be enough time to do good design work. However, one of the core Lean UX principles is to manage to outcomes (changes in customer behavior). If you can get your team thinking about success in those terms, then the velocity of delivery matters much less. The team starts to focus on the customer, what matters to them and what makes them successful. This means going back and not only tweaking/optimizing code but content, copy, and interaction design.
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@jboogie @danvineyard Yeah, lean UX is about learning--so if your team is about learning, the techniques will work well. But a lot of teams that use "AGILE" methods are really just doing incremental development--they're feature factories. Feature factories are not oriented towards learning from feedback. In that case, lean UX isn't a great match. Honestly, in those cases, nothing is a great match.
Braxton Huff
@3raxton · Founder of Porter, Creator, UI Designer
Being an aspiring UI/UX Designer with an interest in startups, what is the best way to display a portfolio when applying for jobs?
Before continuing to the next question, what is the difference between a product manager or product designer and UI/UX Designer?
Furthermore, to make it to the position of a UI/UX Designer what kind of schooling did you go through?
Looking forward to your answers!
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@3raxton When I'm trying to hire designers, I'm looking to understand both the quality of the work they produce and the quality of the thinking process that went into it. Any given design choice could be a good one or bad one--so WHY did you make it. Telling the story is important.
For schooling: I learned on the job. We didn't have "ux designers" when I started! Dinosaurs roamed the earth. :-)
Braxton Huff
@3raxton · Founder of Porter, Creator, UI Designer
From today's view, is there a specific path that you would look at taking over another to obtain a degree such as psychology VS HCI? Furthermore, seeing that you learned your job, do you see degrees to be not as necessary in some cases?
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@3raxton I went to grad school for human factors in design. It was helpful in teaching me the fundamentals behind good design and how humans perceive and react to stimulus. That said, I didn't need to go to grad school to learn how to make wireframes. I think there is a place for school in becoming a good designer, engineer, product manager, etc but it needs to balance theory with real world practice -- i.e., not just what to do but how to apply it in a company, with clients, etc. The problem is that universities struggle to adjust in timeframes the market demands (i.e, they're not agile). So you may not get everything you need from a formal program because by the time you finish it the realities on the ground may have shifted.
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@3raxton I'm a big believer in the liberal arts. I think college is a time to lay in a foundation of experiences--a taste of lots of different areas of knowledge. A time to learn to think critically. Of course, while you're doing this, there are technical skills you can pick up--learning to write (what I studied) or draw or paint or sing or engineer or science etc. I don't think any of these particular hard skills are inherently better than others for a UX career. Certainly when I was hiring designers from 2012 to 2015, I barely glanced at their majors.
What I did look at was what kind of designer they were--and there are lots. There are technically oriented designers who know css/html. There are visual designers with gorgeous portfolios. There are analytical designers who produce wireframes and strategy briefs. All are valuable, and most will find a fit.
At the end of the day, what got people hired was evidence that they had done the work, or could do the work. So I looked at their portfolio and work history, their side projects (maybe they studied photography--did that reveal something about their eye?) their volunteer work, etc. Show me you can do the work or learn how to do the work and I don't care about the degree.
OK, I know--but what program should I attend? I liked the programs at CMU very much--interdisciplinary design programs that exposed students to a range of skills and taught collaboration.
Braxton Huff
@3raxton · Founder of Porter, Creator, UI Designer
@jseiden I have read that it is best to present portfolios in a case study format. Do you have any tips to perfecting a portfolio or ideas that you would argue against?
Also, are there any portfolios that have stuck with you after viewing them?
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@3raxton I think designers should have a small portfolio online and a deeper portfolio to present in person.
For the online version, make it simple and intriguing--make me want to know more about your work. Avoid flashy presentation and show me you know how to design for the user by designing a portfolio for me, the hiring manager.
for the in-person version, show me the brief, the research, the in-progress work. show me your mistakes and how you corrected for them. be real and detailed. show me what your collaborators contributed. tell me why it ended up in the "final" version you're showing. Tell me what you're proud of and why. Tell me what you learned from that project that you'll apply in the future.
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@ayrton Jeff and I collaborated in Google Docs.
We wrote an outline, divided the chapters, wrote chapters, exchanged them, critiqued and then divided up who would address what. Of course, all of that came after about a year of research and writing proposals and trying to get the outline right.
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@ayrton Josh and I will write an abstract and see if we believe it. If we do, we'll write out an outline of what table of contents might look like. We start writing the things that we immediately can write -- i.e., the things that don't require research -- which starts to give us a sense of how the thesis is playing out. From there we adjust and iterate the TOC. We split the TOC by person and then put everything back together with edits in Google Docs. The hardest part is smoothing over the writing styles so it feels like one, consistent narrative.
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@ayrton I'm going to expand on this a bit. We wrote our first book in Scrivener. Scrivener has this nice feature that lets you organizer your manuscript as a series of cards. One one side you have your text, on the other you can write a summary or headline. You can then view your whole book on a card wall. Very helpful for organizing a big piece of writing.
But it's a single user tool. Which sucks.
So for the second book, we did the organizing on whiteboards--getting together once a month or so to look at structure and flow.
I find that I need to be able to zoom in and out when I'm working on something as big as a book. Getting that zoomed out view is hard.
Ben Tossell
@bentossell · Community Lead, Product Hunt
Hey if you had to swap lives with tech CEOs for a week, who would it be and why?
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@bentossell Elon Musk. I just want to see how terrifying his life is. :-)
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@bentossell I might ask the CEOs of my client firms to step into my shoes to see what their people are experiencing. The view from the top is pretty different than the view on the ground.
Ben Tossell
@bentossell · Community Lead, Product Hunt
What do you believe that very few agree with you on?
Also, what does one of you believe that the other does not agree on?
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@bentossell I believe a hot dog is a sandwich. Josh doesn't.
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@bentossell Related to work though, we believe in the power of managing to outcomes. We meet with many executives who claim to agree but, in practice, don't make the switch. My guess is they don't actually believe in the approach as much as they say they do.
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@bentossell I believe pickles should be made without vinegar. Jeff and I disagree on the use of the word "task" as a verb.
Jacqueline von Tesmar
@jacqvon · Community, Product Hunt ✌️😻
What is your number one advice for first time founders?
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@jacqvon Talk to your customers. And never stop. Listen to what they're saying ESPECIALLY if it contradicts with what you believe to be true. Your customers are the ultimate arbiters of your success.
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@iam_maheshkumar · UI/UXdesigner
I work as UI/UX Designer in profession and sometimes as product designer. I have two questions.
1.How can I reach the position from a designer at a mid level company to a product manager at tech giants?
2.What are the key points to make sure for success of product while building it?
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@iam_maheshkumar I've found that many senior designers, seeking greater influence and a broader mandate, move into product management roles. As your design career continues, seek out insight beyond just the realm of design. Dig into the business model, your competition, the tech dependencies. Show your colleagues that your design work takes all of that into account. As you progress you'll find that much of what you do begins to overlap product management which is ultimately the best way to get a new job -- do it first without having the title.
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Josh Seiden
@jseiden · Principal, Neo
@jboogie @iam_maheshkumar My guess is you'd want to make a lateral move into product management first--perhaps at your current company, or perhaps at a company willing to give you a shot. Then work your way over to the giant. Of course, the other path would be to get into the giant you're interested in, then orchestrate a lateral move there.
In either case, I would find a mentor. Get close with a PM you like and trust. Follow him/her around. Help them out and start doing the job even from your current position.
And do what Jeff says--start hanging out beyond the world of design. Go to PM meetup, events, etc.
Cary Feuer
@cgfeuer · Snr Product Manager, ADP
From an enterprise perspective, what's an example of an organization that enables agile teams while staying accountable for quarterly and annual deliverables? What are the necessary ingredients for success?
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@cgfeuer Can you clarify your question? I ask because organizations that are truly "agile" aren't held accountable for deliverables. They're held accountable for customer outcomes.
Jeremy Bauer
@barnabybones · Writer, Instructional Designer @ UIUC
Cary Feuer
@cgfeuer · Snr Product Manager, ADP
@jboogie I guess I'm referring to transitioning out of a mindset of big bang releases and moving toward continuous deployment, and examples of where you've seen larger, more conservative orgs being able to embrace some of the uncertainty on timing that might come with that, and what made it possible for this change to take place in those orgs. Not sure if that's any clearer...
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@cgfeuer We do a lot of work in the financial services industry and we're seeing some good movement there. They've started to transition. The "younger" banks are moving a bit faster than the older ones. They're realizing that to compete in the market they need to continuously optimize their offerings. They're also realizing that technology is the foundation necessary to do this and so the mindset shift begins with the realization that learning happens when we ship. And if we only ship 4 times a year, we only learn 4 times a year. What if we can ship more frequently? When that question gets asked, the shift to increased agility and customer-centricity begins.
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@cgfeuer Once that shift occurs, the measure of success for the teams is key. If you can get the teams to be incentivized with OKR (Objectives and Key Results) then they have the customer front and center in all of their discussions. We've seen this transition start to take hold in big banks like ING and Capital One and smaller, more digitally native (but still big) companies like Paypal.
Cary Feuer
@cgfeuer · Snr Product Manager, ADP
@jboogie "learning happens when we ship" ----- sage words
Cary Feuer
@cgfeuer · Snr Product Manager, ADP
@jboogie Got to see this happening in real time at cap1, exciting stuff. Framing 'deliverables' as learning opportunities is the right approach. Lean x Agile lets us learn faster, cheaper. Done. Sold.
Danny Tirmizi
@danny_tirmizi · Founder : Icarus App
Hi Josh & Jeff, I am the founder of an IOS app called ICARUS ( www.IcarusNow.com)
I wanted to know what are the UI / UX trends in the future of the App market and how critical is MeanStack ?
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Jeff Gothelf
@jboogie · Principal
@danny_tirmizi Hi Danny. I don't have any great (or qualified) answers for you on this question. What I do is explore different categories in the app store for occasional inspiration. There's a lot to be learned from other app categories -- especially ones you may never consider (e.g., I was in an arcade in Tokyo last year and saw game UI and design I'd never seen before. The local kids were all experts at it whereas my daughter and I couldn't even begin to figure it all out.)